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	<title>Comments on: Jesus never claimed to be God?</title>
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	<link>http://www.whyfaith.com/2007/07/05/jesus-never-claimed-to-be-god/</link>
	<description>Please read, ponder &#038; comment</description>
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		<title>By: Colbert gives a smack down to Biblical Scholar Bart Ehrman &#171; The Church of Jesus Christ</title>
		<link>http://www.whyfaith.com/2007/07/05/jesus-never-claimed-to-be-god/comment-page-1/#comment-29611</link>
		<dc:creator>Colbert gives a smack down to Biblical Scholar Bart Ehrman &#171; The Church of Jesus Christ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 23:55:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] of Jesus’ divinity in the synoptics. I’ve explained one of these ways in depth in my post “Jesus Never Claimed to be God?“. I think we can see in the early synoptic gospel writings how the authors are struggling to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of Jesus’ divinity in the synoptics. I’ve explained one of these ways in depth in my post “Jesus Never Claimed to be God?“. I think we can see in the early synoptic gospel writings how the authors are struggling to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Darren</title>
		<link>http://www.whyfaith.com/2007/07/05/jesus-never-claimed-to-be-god/comment-page-1/#comment-28930</link>
		<dc:creator>Darren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 15:17:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.whyfaith.com/2007/07/05/jesus-never-claimed-to-be-god/#comment-28930</guid>
		<description>Thank you for your comments Jonathan! You are correct that building a case based on the gospels is only effective if a person believes the gospels are accurate. I&#039;ve often said that using the Bible to prove the Bible is true is indeed circular.

Of course, I do believe there are good reasons to trust what the Bible says, as outlined in my ebook &quot;The Historical Reliability of the New Testament&quot;:
http://www.whyfaith.com/nt/

Interestingly, even if a person doesn&#039;t consider the Bible to be God&#039;s word or even generally accurate, if we study the gospels and other biblical texts seriously as merely ancient writings, a tenable (IMHO) case can still be built for the truthfulness of the Christian faith, as per Habermas&#039; &quot;minimal facts argument&quot; here:
http://www.growthtrac.com/artman/publish/1the-facts-concerning-the-resurrection-815.php</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for your comments Jonathan! You are correct that building a case based on the gospels is only effective if a person believes the gospels are accurate. I&#8217;ve often said that using the Bible to prove the Bible is true is indeed circular.</p>
<p>Of course, I do believe there are good reasons to trust what the Bible says, as outlined in my ebook &#8220;The Historical Reliability of the New Testament&#8221;:<br />
<a href="http://www.whyfaith.com/nt/" rel="nofollow" >http://www.whyfaith.com/nt/</a></p>
<p>Interestingly, even if a person doesn&#8217;t consider the Bible to be God&#8217;s word or even generally accurate, if we study the gospels and other biblical texts seriously as merely ancient writings, a tenable (IMHO) case can still be built for the truthfulness of the Christian faith, as per Habermas&#8217; &#8220;minimal facts argument&#8221; here:<br />
<a href="http://www.growthtrac.com/artman/publish/1the-facts-concerning-the-resurrection-815.php" rel="nofollow" onclick="javascript:urchinTracker ('/outbound/comment/www.growthtrac.com');">http://www.growthtrac.com/artman/publish/1the-facts-concerning-the-resurrection-815.php</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Tweet</title>
		<link>http://www.whyfaith.com/2007/07/05/jesus-never-claimed-to-be-god/comment-page-1/#comment-28927</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Tweet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 04:38:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.whyfaith.com/2007/07/05/jesus-never-claimed-to-be-god/#comment-28927</guid>
		<description>Attempting to build a historical case based on the gospels is only effective if a person already believes the gospels are the word of God, which is of course circular.

Read scholarly, nonsectarian textbooks about the gospels and you&#039;ll see that scholars consider them to be contradictory and based on secondhand information, useful as evidence about the historical Jesus but not conclusive. Only Christians consider them reliable in all their particulars, and not even all Christians at that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Attempting to build a historical case based on the gospels is only effective if a person already believes the gospels are the word of God, which is of course circular.</p>
<p>Read scholarly, nonsectarian textbooks about the gospels and you&#8217;ll see that scholars consider them to be contradictory and based on secondhand information, useful as evidence about the historical Jesus but not conclusive. Only Christians consider them reliable in all their particulars, and not even all Christians at that.</p>
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		<title>By: Darren</title>
		<link>http://www.whyfaith.com/2007/07/05/jesus-never-claimed-to-be-god/comment-page-1/#comment-3717</link>
		<dc:creator>Darren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2007 18:48:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.whyfaith.com/2007/07/05/jesus-never-claimed-to-be-god/#comment-3717</guid>
		<description>Thank you for the link, but it doesn&#039;t really help to understand anything better. The site makes claims but offers no support for them, for example:
&lt;i&gt;&quot;According to the oldest and most authentic copies of manuscipts [sic] and scrolls available throughout the centuries, Jesus, peace be upon him, never claimed to be God, or the creator, or the One to pray to, nor did he tell his followers to revere him as God. These notions appear on the lips of others who came along decades and even centuries later.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

No evidence is given to back up this claim, and in fact there is much against it. The earliest historical documents that we have concerning Jesus are found in the New Testament. As per my previous post here:
http://www.whyfaith.com/2007/07/10/the-new-testament-when-and-who/
We know that all of the NT documents were written in the first century. We also have very good reasons to believe they were written by eyewitnesses:
http://www.whyfaith.com/2007/03/17/eyewitness-testimony-in-the-new-testament/
Further discussion of the general reliability of the NT is available here (among many other sources):
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/r14ac.html
http://www.4truth.net/site/c.hiKXLbPNLrF/b.784441/k.C6BC/Accuracy/apps/nl/newsletter3.asp
http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&amp;id=6068

So clearly the assertion that Jesus was only claimed to be God centuries later is false. Even the notion that these ideas only appeared &quot;decades&quot; later is also false, since the creed found in 1 Cor 15:3-5 is dated to 3-7 years after Christ&#039;s death:
http://www.carm.org/evidence/1Cor15_3-4.htm

&lt;i&gt;&quot;While Jesus was on earth he did not claim to be the creator or ask us to revere him as God.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Again, this is plainly false from the NT texts, where Jesus is the creator (ex: John 1:3, Colossians 1:16) and accepts worship (ex: Matthew 14:33, John 9:38), after He Himself noted that it is only appropriate to worship God (Matthew 4:10). So again, based on the earliest historical texts, these arguments do not stand.

Attempting to build a historical case based on the Qur&#039;an (which was recorded hundreds of years after Jesus&#039; crucifixion) is only effective if a person already believes the Qur&#039;an is the word of God, which is of course circular.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for the link, but it doesn&#8217;t really help to understand anything better. The site makes claims but offers no support for them, for example:<br />
<i>&#8220;According to the oldest and most authentic copies of manuscipts [sic] and scrolls available throughout the centuries, Jesus, peace be upon him, never claimed to be God, or the creator, or the One to pray to, nor did he tell his followers to revere him as God. These notions appear on the lips of others who came along decades and even centuries later.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>No evidence is given to back up this claim, and in fact there is much against it. The earliest historical documents that we have concerning Jesus are found in the New Testament. As per my previous post here:<br />
<a href="http://www.whyfaith.com/2007/07/10/the-new-testament-when-and-who/" rel="nofollow" >http://www.whyfaith.com/2007/07/10/the-new-testament-when-and-who/</a><br />
We know that all of the NT documents were written in the first century. We also have very good reasons to believe they were written by eyewitnesses:<br />
<a href="http://www.whyfaith.com/2007/03/17/eyewitness-testimony-in-the-new-testament/" rel="nofollow" >http://www.whyfaith.com/2007/03/17/eyewitness-testimony-in-the-new-testament/</a><br />
Further discussion of the general reliability of the NT is available here (among many other sources):<br />
<a href="http://www.apologeticsindex.org/r14ac.html" rel="nofollow" onclick="javascript:urchinTracker ('/outbound/comment/www.apologeticsindex.org');">http://www.apologeticsindex.org/r14ac.html</a><br />
<a href="http://www.4truth.net/site/c.hiKXLbPNLrF/b.784441/k.C6BC/Accuracy/apps/nl/newsletter3.asp" rel="nofollow" onclick="javascript:urchinTracker ('/outbound/comment/www.4truth.net');">http://www.4truth.net/site/c.hiKXLbPNLrF/b.784441/k.C6BC/Accuracy/apps/nl/newsletter3.asp</a><br />
<a href="http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&#038;id=6068" rel="nofollow" onclick="javascript:urchinTracker ('/outbound/comment/www.str.org');">http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&#038;id=6068</a></p>
<p>So clearly the assertion that Jesus was only claimed to be God centuries later is false. Even the notion that these ideas only appeared &#8220;decades&#8221; later is also false, since the creed found in 1 Cor 15:3-5 is dated to 3-7 years after Christ&#8217;s death:<br />
<a href="http://www.carm.org/evidence/1Cor15_3-4.htm" rel="nofollow" onclick="javascript:urchinTracker ('/outbound/comment/www.carm.org');">http://www.carm.org/evidence/1Cor15_3-4.htm</a></p>
<p><i>&#8220;While Jesus was on earth he did not claim to be the creator or ask us to revere him as God.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Again, this is plainly false from the NT texts, where Jesus is the creator (ex: John 1:3, Colossians 1:16) and accepts worship (ex: Matthew 14:33, John 9:38), after He Himself noted that it is only appropriate to worship God (Matthew 4:10). So again, based on the earliest historical texts, these arguments do not stand.</p>
<p>Attempting to build a historical case based on the Qur&#8217;an (which was recorded hundreds of years after Jesus&#8217; crucifixion) is only effective if a person already believes the Qur&#8217;an is the word of God, which is of course circular.</p>
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		<title>By: The Servent of One God</title>
		<link>http://www.whyfaith.com/2007/07/05/jesus-never-claimed-to-be-god/comment-page-1/#comment-3704</link>
		<dc:creator>The Servent of One God</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jul 2007 23:46:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.whyfaith.com/2007/07/05/jesus-never-claimed-to-be-god/#comment-3704</guid>
		<description>I think this website might help to understad the whole thing better  &gt;&gt; http://www.islamcode.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this website might help to understad the whole thing better  &gt;&gt; <a href="http://www.islamcode.com" rel="nofollow" onclick="javascript:urchinTracker ('/outbound/comment/www.islamcode.com');">http://www.islamcode.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Elsie</title>
		<link>http://www.whyfaith.com/2007/07/05/jesus-never-claimed-to-be-god/comment-page-1/#comment-3474</link>
		<dc:creator>Elsie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jul 2007 05:10:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.whyfaith.com/2007/07/05/jesus-never-claimed-to-be-god/#comment-3474</guid>
		<description>No ofense taken, I will now go look for the rest of the &quot;quotes&quot; myself. Nevertheless, I am rather skeptical to believe that ANY of the Canonical or Synoptics where written by ANY of the Apostles or before the 2nd century as we have been made believe.  I will be back ....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No ofense taken, I will now go look for the rest of the &#8220;quotes&#8221; myself. Nevertheless, I am rather skeptical to believe that ANY of the Canonical or Synoptics where written by ANY of the Apostles or before the 2nd century as we have been made believe.  I will be back &#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Darren</title>
		<link>http://www.whyfaith.com/2007/07/05/jesus-never-claimed-to-be-god/comment-page-1/#comment-3458</link>
		<dc:creator>Darren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jul 2007 05:59:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.whyfaith.com/2007/07/05/jesus-never-claimed-to-be-god/#comment-3458</guid>
		<description>Elsie, thank you for the link. I looked through it briefly, although I don&#039;t have time at the moment to read through it in its entirety. I did notice some very disturbing things in this article that destroys the credibility of the author and the website. I do try to keep my mind open, but I do need to keep the screen door closed to keep the bugs out! :)

Here&#039;s a quote from that page:
&lt;i&gt;The Church admits that the Epistles of Paul are forgeries, saying, &quot;Even the genuine Epistles were greatly interpolated to lend weight to the personal views of their authors&quot; (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. vii, p. 645).&lt;/i&gt;

Hmm, that sounds like a rather odd thing for the Catholic Church to say! Let&#039;s look it up online (the Catholic Encyclopedia is online, after all) and see the context for this quote:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07644a.htm

Scroll down to the &quot;Colletions&quot; section. The &quot;Nexus Magazine&quot; page claims this quote refers to the letters of Paul but clearly it does not. The quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia refers to a collection of letters supposedly written by &lt;i&gt;St Ignatius&lt;/i&gt; which were collected by Eusebius. The text has been quoted carefully to hide what it really says, and the author (or whoever he got his information from) has deliberately lied. 

A similar example occurs when the author of this article claims the Catholic Encyclopedia &lt;i&gt;&quot;admits that the Gospels &quot;do not go back to the first century of the Christian era&quot; (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. vi, p. 137, pp. 655-6).&quot;&lt;/i&gt; Read for yourself what it really says:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06655b.htm
It ACTUALLY says that the &lt;i&gt;titles&lt;/i&gt; on the gospels don&#039;t go back to the first century; ie, when the author originally wrote the Gospel of Matthew, he didn&#039;t write &quot;Gospel of Matthew&quot; at the top of the page. Again, the quote has been dishonestly misrepresented.

Another example of the dishonesty of this article: Here&#039;s a quote that supposedly applies to the Council of Nicea: &lt;i&gt;&quot;As yet, no God had been selected by the council, and so they balloted in order to determine that matter... For one year and five months the balloting lasted...&quot;&lt;/i&gt; Wow! That would be quite interesting if it were true. Now, let&#039;s look up their source (which they are using as proof for their views on the Council of Nicea). The citation is &lt;i&gt;&quot;(God&#039;s Book of Eskra, Prof. S. L. MacGuire&#039;s translation, Salisbury, 1922, chapter xlviii, paragraphs 36, 41)&quot;.&lt;/i&gt;

Hmmm, &quot;God&#039;s Book of Eskra&quot;? Perhaps an ancient history text composed around the time of the council? Actually, no, it was written by &quot;a 19th century dentist named John Ballou Newbrough&quot;. It&#039;s described as &quot;a hallucinogenic reworking of cosmology and ancient history&quot;. Read it for yourself here:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/oah/oah/oah531.htm
So it&#039;s really a writing composed in 1882 by some dentist, probably while high. Again, trying to use this quote as evidence is devious &lt;i&gt;in the extreme.&lt;/i&gt;

I looked up 3 quotes from the page, and all three were totally misrepresented!

Now, I don&#039;t have the time to check all the references, but I don&#039;t really need to. The thesis of the page is that the New Testament was composed by Constantine in the 4th century is ridiculous because we have literally thousands of copies of the New Testament texts from the second and third centuries, along with lists of canons from the second and third centuries that match extremely closely with the ones agreed upon at the council (though the canon was not the main concern at the original council). Further, no scholar (be it Christian, Jew, atheist, liberal, conservative ...) would ever give credit to this theory.

Sorry, but I just don&#039;t believe it. I don&#039;t go around calling people liars very often (and I am not calling you a liar) ... but that Nexus Magazine page contains at least three (and I&#039;m willing to bet a &lt;i&gt;lot&lt;/i&gt; more than that) blatant, verifiable lies. Just because someone puts a lot of fancy citations in an article doesn&#039;t mean it&#039;s true.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Elsie, thank you for the link. I looked through it briefly, although I don&#8217;t have time at the moment to read through it in its entirety. I did notice some very disturbing things in this article that destroys the credibility of the author and the website. I do try to keep my mind open, but I do need to keep the screen door closed to keep the bugs out! <img src='http://www.whyfaith.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Here&#8217;s a quote from that page:<br />
<i>The Church admits that the Epistles of Paul are forgeries, saying, &#8220;Even the genuine Epistles were greatly interpolated to lend weight to the personal views of their authors&#8221; (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. vii, p. 645).</i></p>
<p>Hmm, that sounds like a rather odd thing for the Catholic Church to say! Let&#8217;s look it up online (the Catholic Encyclopedia is online, after all) and see the context for this quote:<br />
<a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07644a.htm" rel="nofollow" onclick="javascript:urchinTracker ('/outbound/comment/www.newadvent.org');">http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07644a.htm</a></p>
<p>Scroll down to the &#8220;Colletions&#8221; section. The &#8220;Nexus Magazine&#8221; page claims this quote refers to the letters of Paul but clearly it does not. The quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia refers to a collection of letters supposedly written by <i>St Ignatius</i> which were collected by Eusebius. The text has been quoted carefully to hide what it really says, and the author (or whoever he got his information from) has deliberately lied. </p>
<p>A similar example occurs when the author of this article claims the Catholic Encyclopedia <i>&#8220;admits that the Gospels &#8220;do not go back to the first century of the Christian era&#8221; (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. vi, p. 137, pp. 655-6).&#8221;</i> Read for yourself what it really says:<br />
<a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06655b.htm" rel="nofollow" onclick="javascript:urchinTracker ('/outbound/comment/www.newadvent.org');">http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06655b.htm</a><br />
It ACTUALLY says that the <i>titles</i> on the gospels don&#8217;t go back to the first century; ie, when the author originally wrote the Gospel of Matthew, he didn&#8217;t write &#8220;Gospel of Matthew&#8221; at the top of the page. Again, the quote has been dishonestly misrepresented.</p>
<p>Another example of the dishonesty of this article: Here&#8217;s a quote that supposedly applies to the Council of Nicea: <i>&#8220;As yet, no God had been selected by the council, and so they balloted in order to determine that matter&#8230; For one year and five months the balloting lasted&#8230;&#8221;</i> Wow! That would be quite interesting if it were true. Now, let&#8217;s look up their source (which they are using as proof for their views on the Council of Nicea). The citation is <i>&#8220;(God&#8217;s Book of Eskra, Prof. S. L. MacGuire&#8217;s translation, Salisbury, 1922, chapter xlviii, paragraphs 36, 41)&#8221;.</i></p>
<p>Hmmm, &#8220;God&#8217;s Book of Eskra&#8221;? Perhaps an ancient history text composed around the time of the council? Actually, no, it was written by &#8220;a 19th century dentist named John Ballou Newbrough&#8221;. It&#8217;s described as &#8220;a hallucinogenic reworking of cosmology and ancient history&#8221;. Read it for yourself here:<br />
<a href="http://www.sacred-texts.com/oah/oah/oah531.htm" rel="nofollow" onclick="javascript:urchinTracker ('/outbound/comment/www.sacred-texts.com');">http://www.sacred-texts.com/oah/oah/oah531.htm</a><br />
So it&#8217;s really a writing composed in 1882 by some dentist, probably while high. Again, trying to use this quote as evidence is devious <i>in the extreme.</i></p>
<p>I looked up 3 quotes from the page, and all three were totally misrepresented!</p>
<p>Now, I don&#8217;t have the time to check all the references, but I don&#8217;t really need to. The thesis of the page is that the New Testament was composed by Constantine in the 4th century is ridiculous because we have literally thousands of copies of the New Testament texts from the second and third centuries, along with lists of canons from the second and third centuries that match extremely closely with the ones agreed upon at the council (though the canon was not the main concern at the original council). Further, no scholar (be it Christian, Jew, atheist, liberal, conservative &#8230;) would ever give credit to this theory.</p>
<p>Sorry, but I just don&#8217;t believe it. I don&#8217;t go around calling people liars very often (and I am not calling you a liar) &#8230; but that Nexus Magazine page contains at least three (and I&#8217;m willing to bet a <i>lot</i> more than that) blatant, verifiable lies. Just because someone puts a lot of fancy citations in an article doesn&#8217;t mean it&#8217;s true.</p>
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		<title>By: Elsie</title>
		<link>http://www.whyfaith.com/2007/07/05/jesus-never-claimed-to-be-god/comment-page-1/#comment-3454</link>
		<dc:creator>Elsie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jul 2007 20:28:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.whyfaith.com/2007/07/05/jesus-never-claimed-to-be-god/#comment-3454</guid>
		<description>Please go read this....

http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/NewTestament.html

Then try to open your mind and rethink your statements</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please go read this&#8230;.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/NewTestament.html" rel="nofollow" onclick="javascript:urchinTracker ('/outbound/comment/www.nexusmagazine.com');">http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/NewTestament.html</a></p>
<p>Then try to open your mind and rethink your statements</p>
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